Evelyn Reynolds

FTX’s demise and its leader’s upcoming trial haven’t stopped a major lobbying push by the industry this week, but the events have changed its tone.Cryptocurrency lobbyists were riding so high in early 2022 that an FTX executive felt comfortable directly emailing Jerome H. Powell, the chair of the Federal Reserve, to ask him to meet with Sam Bankman-Fried, the soon-to-be-disgraced founder of the cryptocurrency exchange.It worked.“The day that would work for me is February 1,” Mr. Powell replied to a Jan. 11 email from Mark Wetjen, an FTX policy official and former commissioner at the Commodity Futures Trading Commission.Mr. Powell’s public calendar shows that he and Mr. Bankman-Fried met as planned. And Mr. Wetjen went on to send the Fed chair two policy papers that FTX had recently published, according to emails obtained through a public records request. “Hope you’re finding these useful!” Mr. Wetjen wrote. “Great to have people like you serving our country.”Mr. Powell has long been cautious about the digital currency industry, but, like many in Washington, he was trying to learn more. FTX was eager to do the teaching. According to newly released records, Mr. Wetjen managed to gain access to a range of federal officials. The records show that Mr. Bankman-Fried secured a virtual meeting in October 2021 with another top Fed official, Lael Brainard, who is now the director of the White House National Economic Council. And public calendars show that Mr. Bankman-Fried went on to meet with another top financial regulator, Martin Gruenberg, head of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.The crypto industry faces a more difficult landscape in Washington after last fall’s collapse of FTX. Mr. Bankman-Fried was arrested on fraud charges in December, and his trial is set to start on Tuesday. The industry has also faced a wide-ranging government crackdown that has sent some crypto entrepreneurs abroad in search of friendlier governments.The companies that have survived crypto’s downturn are still pouring millions of dollars into lobbying, but they are having a harder time gaining access to the halls of power. Some congressional offices have become reluctant to meet with industry representatives. Crypto lobbyists appear less frequently on the public calendars of key officials at the regulatory agencies, and companies have had to shift strategy, straining to distinguish themselves from FTX.“There are a bunch of people who’ve had trouble having meetings,” said Sheila Warren, who runs the Crypto Council for Innovation, an advocacy group. “I have heard from some offices that they will not meet with certain people anymore.”With Mr. Bankman-Fried’s trial approaching, the crypto industry is scrambling to change the subject from FTX.Stand With Crypto, a nonprofit backed by the giant digital currency exchange Coinbase, is planning to hold a “fly-in” on Wednesday, bringing in industry players from around the country to talk with lawmakers.“It has been quieter — and more circumspect, in some respects — but the push from the industry hasn’t abated,” said Mark Hays, who tracks cryptocurrency regulation at Americans for Financial Reform. “The crypto industry knows that its star has been tarnished on Capitol Hill, to some extent.”The mood in Congress was friendlier to the industry in early 2022, when FTX was at its zenith: Mr. Bankman-Fried had been positioned as a sort of wunderkind, eccentric and brilliant. But since its collapse, many lawmakers have argued that the industry should be overseen more strictly.“The tone has certainly changed among Democrats — they’re much more skeptical,” said Bart Naylor at Public Citizen, a government watchdog that has been tracking cryptocurrency lobbying.Regulators were more hesitant to embrace crypto firms even in 2022. It was unusual that FTX directly landed a meeting with the Fed chair.Read the emailsA selection of correspondence between FTX and the Federal Reserve, pulled from a series of Freedom of Information Requests submitted by The New York Times.Read DocumentMr. Powell’s only other listed private-sector meetings in February 2022 were with Jane Fraser, the chief executive of Citigroup; David Solomon from Goldman Sachs; Suzanne Clark from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce; James Gorman, the chief executive, and Tom Wipf, a vice chair, from Morgan Stanley; Jamie Dimon, the chief executive of JPMorgan Chase; the Business Council, a group of chief executives; and the head of Singapore’s sovereign wealth fund.Mr. Powell has met with other financial technology companies — he talked with a representative from the payment processor Stripe in March 2022, for example. But he has not listed similar meetings in 2023, based on his calendars released to date.At the meeting with Mr. Bankman-Fried, Mr. Powell and the FTX officials discussed stablecoins as well as central bank digital currencies, a form of electronic cash backed by the government, a person familiar with the matter said.Mr. Powell has met with other financial technology companies in the past. But he has not listed similar meetings in 2023, based on his calendars released to date.Kevin Dietsch/Getty ImagesMr. Wetjen knew many of the agency officials with whom he was setting up meetings from his previous policy role in Washington. He and Mr. Powell had worked on regulatory issues together while Mr. Powell was a Fed governor, for instance.Dennis Kelleher, the head of the regulatory watchdog Better Markets, said FTX had exercised an extensive web of influence in broader regulatory circles, partly through Mr. Wetjen’s connections.“This is the problem: These relationships, which are not visible to the public, pay dividends year after year after year once these guys swing through the revolving door,” Mr. Kelleher said. FTX also flooded Washington with money, which helped it gain a foothold in congressional offices and at think tanks, he and several lobbyists said.The Fed did not provide a comment for this article, nor did Mr. Wetjen. The White House had no comment on Ms. Brainard’s meeting with Mr. Bankman-Fried. An F.D.I.C. spokesman noted that chairs of the agency often held courtesy visits with financial firm leaders.Back in 2022, FTX was trying to shape how the Commodity Futures Trading Commission regulated it, as Mr. Wetjen made clear to Mr. Powell in one email from that May.“We have an application before the C.F.T.C. that lays out for the agency how to do so,” Mr. Wetjen wrote of regulating FTX. “All the C.F.T.C. has to do is approve it.”The Fed had little control over such matters, but Mr. Powell does sit on the Financial Stability Oversight Council, an interagency regulatory body that includes the director of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission.Mr. Wetjen continued: “To the extent the crypto industry comes up in discussions” at the Financial Stability Oversight Council, “we wanted you to have this context and our views at FTX.”The company clearly failed to make much headway with the Fed chair. Mr. Powell supported an October decision by the Financial Stability Oversight Council to further study the kind of setup that FTX and other trading platforms wanted for crypto asset exchanges, rather than greenlighting it.Now, FTX’s demise has only bolstered the arguments of regulators who wanted to approach crypto firms carefully. This year, the Securities and Exchange Commission has sued Coinbase and Binance, FTX’s two largest competitors, amid a broader government crackdown. With Mr. Bankman-Fried out of the picture, other financial technology companies are spending millions to make sure that the future of regulatory oversight favors them.Mr. Hays of Americans for Financial Reform said the industry was hardly being shunned in Washington, because “money talks.”“I still think they’re getting doors opened.” More

Unions representing 60,000 workers across Nevada have been in talks with the resorts since April. The vote is a crucial step toward a walkout.Hospitality workers in Las Vegas have voted overwhelmingly to authorize a strike against major resorts along the Strip, a critical step toward a walkout as the economically challenged city prepares for major sporting events in the months ahead.The authorization vote on Tuesday by members of Culinary Workers Union Local 226 and Bartenders Union Local 165, which collectively represent 60,000 workers across Nevada, was approved by 95 percent of those taking part, according to union officials.Although a vote is a forceful step, it does not guarantee that workers will strike before hashing out a new contract deal with the major resorts. Contracts for roughly 40,000 housekeepers, bartenders, cooks and food servers at MGM Resorts International, Caesars Entertainment and Wynn Resorts expired on Sept. 15, after being extended from a June deadline. Other workers remain on extended contracts that can be terminated at any time.The locals, which are affiliated with the union Unite Here, have been in negotiations with the resorts since April over demands that include higher wages, more safety protections and stronger recall rights so that workers have more ability to return to their jobs during a pandemic or an economic crisis. (Union officials have said there are about 20 percent fewer hospitality workers in the city than before the Covid pandemic.)The authorization vote was approved by 95 percent of those taking part, union officials said.Bridget Bennett for The New York Times“No one ever wants to go on strike,” said Ted Pappageorge, the head of Local 226. “But working-class folks and families have been left behind, especially since the pandemic.”In a statement, MGM Resorts said it was optimistic the two sides could come to an agreement.“We continue to have productive meetings with the union and believe both parties are committed to negotiating a contract that is good for everyone,” said the company.Wynn Resorts and Caesars Entertainment declined to comment on the vote. Negotiations continue next week between the union and the companies.The contract battle comes as the tourism-dependent state, where the rebound from the pandemic’s economic toll has been slower than in other regions, has hedged its bets on a big sports bump.In November, Formula 1 will arrive with the Las Vegas Grand Prix, an international event that is expected to draw hundreds of thousands of tourists. A few months later, the region will be the site of the Super Bowl.“No one ever wants to go on strike,” said Ted Pappageorge, the head of Culinary Workers Union Local 226. “But working-class folks and families have been left behind, especially since the pandemic.”Bridget Bennett for The New York TimesThe authorization vote also comes amid major labor battles nationwide.Thousands of members of the United Automobile Workers union have been on strike against the three major Detroit automakers for nearly two weeks. And while the Writers Guild of America recently reached a tentative agreement with major Hollywood studios after a monthslong walkout, contract talks with tens of thousands of striking actors are at an impasse.In Southern California, thousands of hotel workers with Unite Here Local 11 have staged several months of temporary strikes.The Culinary Union, which is a major base for Democrats in Nevada, a swing state, held a similar strike authorization vote in 2018 among 25,000 workers. A contract agreement with major hotels was reached before any strike occurred.For Chelsea MacDougall, who works as a gourmet food server at the Wynn Las Vegas, watching months of negotiations with few results has been frustrating. Inside an arena crowded with fellow union workers — some waving signs that read “One Job Should Be ENOUGH,” alluding to low pay — she voted to authorize a walkout.“This is our next show of force to companies,” said Ms. MacDougall, 36, who makes $11.57 an hour before tips. “The workers deserve a living wage.” More

JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon is warning that interest rates could go up quite a bit further as policymakers face the prospects of elevated inflation and slow growth.
“I am not sure if the world is prepared for 7%,” he told The Times of India in an interview.
The comments come less than a week after Fed officials indicated that they could approve another quarter point increase before beginning to cut a few times in 2024.

Jamie Dimon, Chairman of the Board and Chief Executive Officer of JPMorgan Chase & Co., speaks during the event Chase for Business The Experience – Miami hosted by JP Morgan Chase Bank for small business owners at The Wharf in Miami, Florida, U.S., February 8, 2023.
Marco Bello | Reuters

JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon is warning that interest rates could go up quite a bit further as policymakers face the prospects of elevated inflation and slow growth.
Though Federal Reserve officials have indicated that they are near the end of their rate-hiking cycle, the head of the largest U.S. bank by assets said that may not necessarily be the case.

In fact, Dimon said in an interview with The Times of India that the Fed’s key borrowing rate could rise significantly from its current targeted range of 5.25%-5.5%. He said that when the Fed raised the rate from near zero to 2%, it was “almost no move,” while the increase from there to the current range merely “caught some people off guard.”
“I am not sure if the world is prepared for 7%,” he said, according to a transcript of the interview. “I ask people in business, ‘Are you prepared for something like 7%?’ The worst case is 7% with stagflation. If they are going to have lower volumes and higher rates, there will be stress in the system. We urge our clients to be prepared for that kind of stress.”
To emphasize the point, Dimon referenced Warren Buffett’s much-cited quote, “Only when the tide goes out do you discover who’s been swimming naked.”

“That will be the tide going out,” he said about the rate surge. “These 200 [basis points] will be more painful than the 3% to 5%” move.
The comments come less than a week after Fed officials, in their quarterly economic update, indicated that they could approve another quarter percentage point increase by the end of the year before beginning to cut a few times in 2024.

However, that’s predicated on the data continuing to cooperate. Fed Chair Jerome Powell said the central bank won’t hesitate to raise rates, or at least keep them at elevated levels, if it doesn’t feel like inflation is on a sustained trajectory lower, a higher-for-longer reality with which markets are grappling.
“I would be cautious,” Dimon told the Times. “We have to deal with all these serious issues over time, and your deficits can’t continue forever. So rates may go up more. But I hope and pray there is a soft landing.”
Treasury yields have been on the rise since last week’s Fed meeting, with the 10-year note hovering around 16-year highs.
Wolfe Research cautioned Tuesday that the benchmark note could hit 5% before the end of the year, from its current level near 4.5%.
At the same time, Fed researchers, in a white paper released Monday, noted the high level of inflation uncertainty, which they said “may be acting as a headwind to U.S. growth and pose challenges for monetary policy.” The paper said that such uncertainty can have an impact on industrial production, consumption and investment. More

The four-day trip to China started in Shanghai late last week and had been some time in the making.
The visit came less than two weeks after the European Commission, the executive arm of the EU, opened an investigation into Chinese subsidies for electric car manufacturers.
Dombrovskis is using the trip to explain to his Chinese counterparts that the probe aims to create fairer trading practices, and that the EU does not plan to cut ties with Beijing.

It is a make-or-break moment for China’s relationship with the European Union, as the bloc’s trade chief asks for more openness and fairness from Beijing.
“We stand at a crossroads. We can choose a path towards mutually beneficial relations. One which is based on open, fair trade and investment, and working hand in hand on the great challenges of our time,” Valdis Dombrovskis, executive vice president of the European Commission, said at Tsinghua University in Beijing on Monday.

“Or we can choose a path that slowly moves us apart. Where the shared benefits we enjoyed in recent decades weaken, and fade. And, as a result, where our people and economies face reduced opportunities,” he added.
This is some of the sharpest wording to come from European officials and follows data that showed the EU logging a trade deficit of almost 400 billion euros with China in 2022.
“Last year, the EU registered record bilateral trade with China of 865 billion euros ($921 billion). But this is very unbalanced, because the EU has a trade deficit of almost 400 billion euros,” Dombrovskis said Saturday before an audience in Shanghai, where he began his four-day trip to China late last week.
The visit, which was a while in the making, coincidentally came less than two weeks after the European Commission, the executive arm of the EU, opened an investigation into Chinese subsidies to electric car manufacturers.
While the EU argues that Chinese support to EVs is creating distortions in the European market, Beijing authorities criticize what they described as “protectionist” views from Brussels.

Dombrovskis is using the trip to explain to his Chinese counterparts that the probe aims to create fairer trading practices, and that the EU does not plan to cut ties with Beijing.
In recent months, the EU has put more and more emphasis on the idea of de-risking from China — a concept that tries to bridge the gap between a more aggressive U.S. decoupling and the EU’s awareness that China is a critical trading partner.
“De-risk. This means minimising our strategic dependencies for a select number of strategic products. Acting in a proportionate and targeted way to maintain our open strategic autonomy,” Dombrovskis clarified in a speech in Shanghai.

De-risking, not decoupling

European officials have stressed their plan is not to decouple from China and have looked to influence the United States to take the same approach.
In a joint statement of the Group of Seven, the world’s seven largest economies, the U.S. agreed there is a need to de-risk from Beijing.
“It looks more like it’s China decoupling from Europe, and Europe is becoming ever more dependent on China,” Jens Eskelund, president of the European Union Chamber of Commerce in China, told CNBC’s “Asia Squawk Box” on Monday.
“When you look at the facts, you look at the figures, it looks like the decoupling is going the other direction,” he said, noting that China has been “de-risking itself for decades.”

One of the areas where the EU is looking to de-risk is the electric vehicle sector, after the share of such China-made cars sold into Europe rose to 8% this year. European officials have said this slice could reach 15% by 2025.
EV market developments are particularly significant ahead of a European deadline to end the sale of new diesel and petrol cars by 2035.
Eskelund also said that European automakers set up factories and have up to 95% of their whole production value chain in China.
“They create jobs, they pay taxes in China,” he said, adding, “What we’re looking at now is… 100% produced-in-China imports [coming] into Europe.”
When asked about potential retaliation from China over the investigation, Eskelund maintained that both Europe and Beijing have “very deep interests” to try to resolve the matter before it reaches a point of imposing punitive tariffs.
“The two sides need to sit down and have a grown up conversation about what some of the barriers are,” he said.
— CNBC’s Lee Ying Shan contributed to this report More

The union designated 38 spare-parts distribution centers as additional strike targets at General Motors and Stellantis.The United Automobile Workers union on Friday significantly raised the pressure on General Motors and Stellantis, the parent of Jeep and Ram, by expanding its strike against the companies to include all the spare-parts distribution centers of the two companies.By widening the strike to the distribution centers, which supply parts to dealerships for repairs, the union is effectively taking its case to consumers, some of whom might find it difficult or impossible to have their cars and trucks fixed. The strategy could pressure the automakers to make more concessions to the union, but it could backfire on the union by frustrating car owners and turning them against the U.A.W.Shawn Fain, the union’s president, said Friday that workers at 38 distribution centers at the two companies would walk off the job. He said talks with two companies had not progressed significantly, contrasting them with Ford Motor, which he said had done more to meet the union’s demands.“We will shut down parts distribution centers until those two companies come to their senses and come to the bargaining table,” Mr. Fain said.Where Autoworkers Are Walking Out More

The rules, which aim to prevent chip makers from using new U.S. subsidies to benefit China, take into account the industry’s perspective.The Biden administration on Friday issued final rules that would prohibit chip companies vying for a new infusion of federal cash from carrying out certain business expansions, partnerships and research in China, in what it described as an effort to protect United States national security.The regulations come as the Biden administration prepares to disburse more than $52 billion in federal grants and tens of billions of dollars of tax credits to build up the U.S. chip industry. The new rules aim to prevent chip makers that benefit from U.S. grants from passing technology, business know-how or other benefits to China.The final restrictions will prohibit firms that receive federal money from using it to construct chip factories outside the United States. They also restrict companies from significantly expanding semiconductor manufacturing in “foreign countries of concern” — defined as China, Iran, Russia and North Korea — for 10 years after receiving an award, the administration said.The rules also prevent companies that receive funding from carrying out certain joint research projects in those countries, or licensing technology that would raise national security concerns to those countries.If a company violated those guardrails, the Commerce Department said, the government could claw back the firm’s entire award.“These guardrails will protect our national security and help the United States stay ahead for decades to come,” Gina M. Raimondo, the secretary of commerce, said in a statement.The restrictions have been the subject of heavy lobbying from the chip industry, which collectively earns about one-third of its revenue from China. Chip makers in comments filed this year expressed concerns that overly restrictive measures could disrupt supply chains and hamper their global competitiveness.Many of the rule’s broad principles, like the 10-year limit on new investments in China, were outlined in the bipartisan legislation that authorized funding for the sector. But Commerce Department officials were responsible for writing the detailed provisions of the rule.In its final rules issued Friday, the department appeared to take the perspective of chip makers and others into account. A comparison of the restrictions showed that the department had made several changes supported by chip makers, such as abolishing a specific dollar threshold for transactions that would expand chip companies’ manufacturing capacity in China, Russia, North Korea or Iran. Under the proposed rule in March, the Commerce Department would have reviewed any transaction that expanded a company’s semiconductor manufacturing capacity in such a “country of concern” valued at more than $100,000.But companies like Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company suggested that it would be more pragmatic for the department to monitor the physical expansion of the footprint of semiconductor factories, a standard that the commerce department adopted.It remains to be seen if any of the changes will prompt a backlash from Republicans on Capitol Hill, who have criticized the Biden administration as not being tough enough on Beijing and condemned a recent set of trips to China by top administration officials.In an interview on Friday, Commerce Department officials said that they had received various requests from the industry to relax certain guidelines, but that they had maintained or even strengthened some provisions where necessary to protect national security.One official added that the national security goal of the program was to have companies operating in the United States and doing so successfully, and that the department aimed to work with companies to ensure they were executing on U.S. grants.“My sense is that they struck a reasonable balance between trying to be restrictive but also not trying to be draconian with the impact on existing facilities in China,” said Chris Miller, the author of “Chip War” and an associate professor of international history at the Fletcher School at Tufts University. More

Goldman Sachs predicts credit card losses will continue to climb through the end of 2024/early 2025.
What is unusual is that the losses are accelerating outside of an economic downturn, the firm said.
Credit card losses currently stand at 3.63%, up 1.5 percentage points from the bottom.

Frederic J. Brown | AFP | Getty Images

Credit card companies are racking up losses at the fastest pace in almost 30 years, outside of the Great Financial Crisis, according to Goldman Sachs.
Credit card losses bottomed in September 2021, and while initial increases were likely reversals from stimulus, they have been rapidly rising since the first quarter of 2022. Since that time, it’s an increasing rate of losses only seen in recent history during the recession of 2008.

It is far from over, the firm predicts.
Losses currently stand at 3.63%, up 1.5 percentage points from the bottom, and Goldman sees them rising another 1.3 percentage points to 4.93%. This comes at a time when Americans owe more than $1 trillion on credit cards, a record high, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.
“We think delinquencies could continue to underperform seasonality through the middle of next year and don’t see losses peaking until late 2024 / early 2025 for most issuers,” analyst Ryan Nash wrote in a note Friday.
What is unusual is that the losses are accelerating outside of an economic downturn, he pointed out.
Of the past five credit card loss cycles, three were characterized by recessions, he said. The two that occurred when the economy was not in a recession were in the mid ’90s and 2015 to 2019, Nash said. He used history as a guide to determine further losses.

“In our view, this cycle resembles the characteristics of what was experienced in the late 1990s and somewhat similar to the ’15 to ’19 cycle where losses increase following a period of strong loan growth and has seen similar pace of normalization thus far this cycle,” Nash said.
History also shows that losses tend to peak six to eight quarters after loan growth peaks, he said. That implies the credit normalization cycle is only at its halfway point, hence the late 2024, early 2025 prediction, he said.
Nash sees the most downside risk for Capital One Financial, followed by Discover Financial Services.
— CNBC’s Michael Bloom contributed reporting. More

The regular talks are intended to give both countries a venue to resolve differences.The United States and China have created a new structure for economic dialogue in an effort to improve communication between the world’s largest economies and stabilize a relationship that has become increasingly strained in recent years.The Treasury Department said on Friday that the United States and China had agreed to create economic and financial working groups that will hold regular meetings to discuss policy and exchange information. The announcement follows visits to Beijing by three of President Biden’s cabinet members over the summer that were intended to ease tensions over economic and geopolitical matters that has been festering for years between the two countries.The Treasury Department said that the new working groups would create “ongoing structured channels for frank and substantive discussions.” Treasury officials will report to Ms. Yellen, who traveled to Beijing in July. China’s representatives, from its ministry of finance and the People’s Bank of China, will report to Vice Premier He Lifeng.“These working groups will serve as important forums to communicate America’s interests and concerns; promote a healthy economic competition between our two countries with a level playing field for American workers and businesses; and advance cooperation on global challenges,” Ms. Yellen said in a statement.The U.S. and China still have major economic disagreements on tariffs, technology controls and investment restrictions. The Biden administration has been especially concerned recently about the treatment of American companies operating in China.The creation of a working group linking the Treasury Department directly with Chinese officials on economic and financial issues represents the revival of a decades-long approach to bilateral relations that was dismantled under former President Donald J. Trump.Congress took away the Treasury’s authority over trade relations in the 1970s, transferring that authority to the newly created Office of the United States Trade Representative, which was also made a cabinet agency. Congress acted after complaints from American industries and labor unions that Treasury and the State Department had been making trade concessions to other countries to win allies against the Soviet Union in the Cold War.Under former Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama, the Treasury led interagency negotiating teams in talks with China. Treasury’s leadership limited the influence of American trade officials, as a succession of Treasury secretaries assigned a high priority to economic policy coordination with China and to opening China’s financial markets to Wall Street firms.Mr. Trump dismantled the interagency working group system and said that each agency would negotiate separately with China. Vice Premier Liu He, the predecessor of Vice Premier He Lifeng in handling international economic policy, tried repeatedly to reach trade arrangements with then Treasury Secretary Steven T. Mnuchin, bypassing Robert E. Lighthizer, who was Mr. Trump’s trade representative.But Mr. Trump did not endorse those arrangements and instead backed Mr. Lighthizer, who ended up negotiating a limited trade agreement that was signed by both countries in January 2020, and remains in place.In August, Gina Raimondo, the commerce secretary, announced during her trip to Beijing and Shanghai that the United States and China agreed to hold regular conversations about commercial issues and restrictions on access to advanced technology.A senior Treasury official said that a consensus was reached during Ms. Yellen’s trip in July to form the groups, which are meant to allow both sides to voice concerns and look for ways to work together. The economic group will focus on challenges such as restructuring debt for low- and middle-income countries in distress, while the financial group will delve into topics like financial stability and sustainable finance.Ms. Yellen said on Friday that the new structure was an important step forward in the bilateral relationship.“It is vital that we talk, particularly when we disagree,” she said. More